We all use AI. We use it here at the Lens. But AI is no longer just helping us work—it may already be creating the very music, voices, and personalities we trust. In our Season 5 premiere, we unpack the unsettling experience of discovering AI-generated musicians and influencers masquerading as real people, debate whether authenticity can survive in an age of synthetic media, and ask who should be responsible when technology crosses into deeply human spaces.

We also introduce Picks to Click, our new recurring feature spotlighting one book, one TV show, one movie, one album, and one podcast we think deserve your attention. This episode's picks include The Constitution by Melissa Murray, Man on Fire, Michael, Sonny Rollins' The Bridge, and Carlos Watson's Carlos. Thought-provoking conversation, cultural recommendations, and 100% human curation.

Transcript

Jason: [00:00:00] Yo, this is The Rhythmic Lens, a podcast that explores arts and life by ciphering on the events, new releases, and issues of the day by the editors of The New Obsidian. You can find us at thenewobsidian.com. I’m Jason.

Kim: I’m Kim.

Ron: I’m Ron.

Jason: Hey, hey, hey, y’all. It’s good to see you. Good to hear your voices, man.

This is The Rhythmic Lens 5.1, right? Season five-

Ron: Yay ... episode

Jason: one. How y’all doing? Feel- Feels good. Feels good to be here, man. Yeah, it

Ron: feels good to be here.

Jason: Fantastic. Missed you guys. I missed you too. I missed you too.

Kim: Yeah.

Jason: And, uh, this is what we have on tap tonight, all right? Our main topic is when AI crosses into spaces you expect to be organic.

All right? Okay. And [00:01:00] after this main topic, after we chop this up, we’re going to do a new feature called Picks to Click. And Ron, give us a little rundown on that.

Ron: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, you know, this is something that we’ve done in one form or the other since we started the pod, and it’s also something that we did on the online version of The New Obsidian.

But essentially, what we wanna do for you every episode is, you know, kind of go over some, introduce you to or just talk about one book, one TV show, one movie, one music release, and one podcast that we think y’all need to be up on according to the editors of The Obsidian and the hosts of The Lens. So that’s all that’s gonna be, you know, and, uh, we should have some fun with that.

And if anything is coming up, we’ll also let you know about that too, you know, to, to keep an eye out [00:02:00] on. So that’s Picks to Click

Jason: Fantastic, man. Hey, is this all human generated? I mean, are human beings clicking and picking and stuff like that? Is that something that’s happening here? Are there humans behind it is my question.

100%,

Ron: 100% organic.

Kim: Yay.

Ron: 100%. 100%.

Kim: All right, y’all. So at school, I hear my students talking about AI all the time, whether it’s ChatGPT or they’re repeating some phrases or they’re just ... They’re, they’re in there, locked in there. And I’m curious, what are your kids saying about AI?

Jason: Well, my kids, they say plenty.

I’ve got a, I’ve got a freshman in high school and a graduating senior in high school. And, you know, first of all, they both see it as a tool. I think it’s, it’s a lot closer to them just as a, as a new introduction, as a tool, as, versus honestly as a threat, [00:03:00] right? But they both feel that there should be no place for AI in media, entertainment- Mm-hmm

arts. They feel that is a breach of ... Maybe to say is like the interconnection of feelings that are shared between humans when you understand somebody maybe, for example, um, writes a song, and it’s based off of an ex- an emotional experience that that person had, and the listener connects with the experience shared through the song.

Mm-hmm. Almost like the song is the conduit. And so- You know, they look at AI-produced media to a degree, or quote unquote art, and think, “What’s the purpose? Where’s the connection?” [00:04:00] So a l- a lot of it has to do with that, that organic piece, right? What are feelings? W- you know, why would I care about something that somebody didn’t put the effort or the hours or life years into for a particular expertise to express themselves, but they did in five minutes.

Why should I care about what they produced?

Kim: So your kids, they have that kind of, like, in them already.

Jason: They... Yeah, I mean, a- and I was asking multiple questions. I mean, they’ve said more than this, but I’ve asked multiple questions, and there was a clear line in the sand for them on when it came to media, entertainment, art, stuff like that.

Mm. When it came to other things, it’s a tool. Yeah. Here it was a breach.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: That’s [00:05:00] interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I’m actually... I’m glad to hear that.

Kim: Sure.

Ron: My... I did chat with my son about it. He’s a junior in high school. Mm. And I think, like your kids, Jason, he is not concerned with AI whatsoever. He does see it as, “Hey, it’s just tech,” right?

And I think that he and his friends are very comfortable with it, which is probably where we’re probably all gonna end up with it even- eventually. But I did ask him specifically what he thought about, like, fake stuff- Mm-hmm ... with regards to, like, songs or video clips of actors and that sort of thing. Yeah.

And he said, “Well, you know, those things, you just know that they’re fake.” And I was like, “Well, how do you [00:06:00] know?”

Kim: Good question.

Ron: I mean, they’re getting really good at it, and he’s like, “No, you just know. You just know. There’s just, there’s something that’s just off about it.” Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I said, “Well, what do you mean?

Like, how do you know if something’s just off?” He- and he said, “Do you know what it’s like, you know, like how you can read somebody’s, like, signature, and it doesn’t look like any letters at all, but you know what that thing says?”

NPC: Yeah.

Ron: That’s how it, that’s how it is with AI. Like, you can just tell what it is just by what...

how it presents. And I thought to myself, “Man, that’s really cool, and I’m really glad to hear that.” Like- Yeah ... and so maybe that is actually the case. Like, maybe as humans, we’re always gonna be able to tell on some level-

Kim: Mm-hmm ... “

Ron: Hey, this is not quite right.”

Kim: And maybe because kids grew up with more of [00:07:00] it, they are more attuned- Yeah

to it because they’re used to that on a more regular basis than us Gen Xers.

Ron: Yes. Yeah. I think so. I think so, yeah, yeah.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: But I do have to say this, Kim. That clip that you, that you sent to us.

Kim: Ooh.

Ron: I don’t know if I would’ve known.

Kim: All right. I

Ron: don’t

Jason: know. What are you ta- what are you talking about? What clip?

Yeah.

Kim: Okay.

Ron: Hold on. Should

Kim: I tell you about it?

Jason: Tell me about it. Yeah,

Kim: might as well. Okay. It’s embarrassing, but-

Jason: Okay.

Kim: I’m embarrassed by

Jason: it. Is it a clip of you?

Kim: No. No.

Jason: All right. Go ahead. Okay. Go ahead. I will

Kim: te- I’ll tell you what happened. So, you know, I think how I really love YouTube, and YouTube feeds me music.

I’m walking to school every day. I’m listening. I got my headphones in. I’m listening to music, and it showed me some of my favorite artists to this date, people like Yola, Hermanos Gutierrez, my favorite, favorite. I found them through [00:08:00] YouTube suggestions, right? Black Pumas, Leon Bridges, Khruangbin, Gregory Alan Isakov.

And

Jason: YouTube, YouTube this?

Kim: YouTube will just be like, “Hey, you might like da-da.” Okay. They don’t say that, but in my mind, like, it just shows up. I’m like, “Oh, okay.”

Jason: I haven’t tried that.

Kim: Yeah.

Jason: I... That’s interesting. Okay.

Kim: And that’s one of the things I love about the YouTube feature, is that I found some of my favorite...

Okay. So walking to school the other day, and I hear this new song, and I really like it. I’m... It’s kind of not like what is in my feed right now. It’s more, like, bluesy.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Kim: I really, really like it, so I’m, like, grooving to it. I’m listening to the lyric. I’m li- I’m just listening to it, and I think, “Wow, this is really tight.

This is really, really, really good.” And I’m listening to it, and I’m enjoying it. Uh, fast-forward a couple, like, hours more th- into the day. I’m checking out a couple of their songs, and then there’s just some- I don’t even like, kinda like RJ was saying, like I’m not even sure what it is, [00:09:00] but there was something about it and I was just like, “Wait a minute.”

And I wish I could remember what it was, but I looked in a little bit further and I looked it up on Google, and I found out that this man, his name is Benny R- wait a minute, not even man. This- ... song came from Benny Rivers’ blues compilation, and Benny Rivers is an AI. So the whole song was created with the AI.

I got duped, I got bamboozled, I got fooled by AI, and it really fucked me up because I have so reliably been able to count on YouTube. This is the first time that has ever happened to me with music. Hmm. And it really, really pissed me off. And it’s already kinda like what we talked about. And I felt, then I felt [00:10:00] stupid.

I felt like, how could I not know? And then, and you look at it again and you’re like, “Oh, yeah.” I mean, they don’t show him sing- it singing, but you look the face and oh, maybe, like the, there’s a little bit too, too perfect of a- Hmm ... image of a, like an el- elder Black man and, and then the, the maybe the sound of the voice is a little too perfect in the back.

Like- Hmm ... but it sound... I’m t- I’m telling you, and I know Ron is, you, I’ll let you speak next because I was in there and I really liked it, and I’m so embarrassed, but that’s what happened, Jason.

Jason: Oh.

Kim: But now you’ve listened, Ron, so I would like to hear what you said, what you think.

Ron: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So unfortunately, I, yeah, I already knew it was AI.

Okay? Yeah.

Kim: So

Ron: you know what I

Kim: mean?

Ron: When you first heard it- I was about to say that. Right. Right, right. Okay. When I went to the link, I went there knowing that, but then I was still... I was just super curious.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: So I played it, and it was like, [00:11:00] the coldest part about it is, like, they invented this, like, old, like, typical blues old man, like your old Black man.

Yeah. Playing the blues, right? And you play it, and it’s like, “Oh, man, this is nice.” Hell no. “This is a jam.” Yeah. And then I’m like, “Wait a minute. Stop.” How have I not... So I didn’t... But Jason, you haven’t heard it yet?

Jason: Nah. I, I, I- And

Kim: actually-

Ron: Oh,

Kim: oh, oh ... before- Go ahead ... before you go, Jason, I, I really, I just remembered why I, why it made me suspicious.

I actually remembered. Okay. Okay. What made me suspicious was I looked and saw that he had only been on YouTube for just, like, a couple weeks, like a month.

Jason: Old Black guy? Oh.

Kim: Like, wait a minute. How have I not heard of this guy before? And he’s so good. Uh-huh. And then that, I remember that is what made me suspicious, was just he just joined YouTube at age 70.

Jason: Oh, right.

Kim: And he’s never- Yeah, yeah ... heard [00:12:00] before. That’s funny. And then I, that’s, I told, I told you guys about it, and so that’s why Ron already knew he was AI, it was AI, so.

Ron: Okay.

Kim: Jason’s not heard it. Yeah.

Ron: We gotta let Jason hear it.

[Music Plays]

Jason: Oh yeah, he’s jamming and shit

Be real.

Jason: Oh, this sucks.

Okay. Step by step and barely So Benny Rivers ain’t real? Nope.

All right.

‘Cause for real, he sounds real. Yeah, we are. Well. I know, right? Yeah, we sing That was, like, crazy,

Kim: right? Yeah, we sing. That’s crazy.

Jason: It is crazy. Yeah. If, if, if I heard it on the radio, I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t know, right?

Ron: No.

Jason: Um, but what’s interesting is knowing that this wasn’t a human being-

Kim: Yeah

Jason: I hear actually no soul.

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Ron: Right. Yeah.

Jason: It’s a great song. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It clicks, but guess what? [00:14:00] It, there’s no feeling. There’s great notes. Yeah. Great rhythm. His, his, his chalky, old Black man voice is, is-

Ron: It is. And it, and every note is- Ashy ass voice ... completely, e- every note is on key.

Jason: Yeah.

Ron: May- and so maybe that’s part of it.

It’s too good or it’s too perfect. There’s no imperfections.

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Ron: So it doesn’t feel real, right?

Kim: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and in hindsight looking back, I, I’ll, I’ll share it. So I did look back and I was like-

Ron: Yes ...

Kim: I got really pissed. I, I mean, we all, I know, have a similar feeling about, about music. That music is- Mm-hmm

like, spirituality, music s- saves lives. Music is, like, heart and soul. Like-

Ron: Yeah ...

Kim: if you, if I’m listening to Radiohead all day, if you know me a [00:15:00] little bit, you know that I’m sad, and you know that I need a hug. Right? If you’re paying attention. Mm. Like, I go to certain songs, I go... It’s so fucking personal, and it’s such a betrayal.

It is such a fucking betrayal to have been sucked in by this. And again, hindsight I can look back and say, “Oh, it’s too this, it’s too that.” ‘Cause when I first heard it, I had no idea. And I was trusting my YouTube algorithm, which had done me so good s- up to this point. Yeah. I wasn’t expecting it. And so now I’m on the lookout, of course.

But it was such a betrayal because it’s such a personal, deep connection with music. And so to have this thing breach that without permission was such a violation. And the other thing is walking just to work, life is kinda rough right now with the politics things, and my school are rough too. Like, this is my time that I’m preparing, and I’m peaceful- Mm-hmm

and I’m by my [00:16:00] fucking self. I teach all day, and I have children, and I’ve got a husband, and I’m basically constantly overstimulated. And so my me time-

Jason: Yes ...

Kim: my me time is, like, precious, so- Right ... I was, how, how fucking- Yes ... dare you deceive me like that it, with this precious thing to me at this precious time for me?

So it was a huge betrayal. And I actually went back and I looked, and I was like... ‘Cause that was one of the things. I’m like, “You can’t do that to people,” emphasis on people. So I went back and I looked at the Benny Rivers site on YouTube. Nothing prom- nothing, I scrolled through, like, the list of his, its songs or whatever.

Nothing says AI. I click the description with, from the site. Nothing says AI. And the m- I finally found a place where it says, it mentions it when I looked at a song and I went to the description and I scrolled a little bit, and then it says, “How this was made. Alter or [00:17:00] synthetic content. Sound or visuals were significantly edited or digitally generated.”

So that’s the only place I could find after s- looking pretty hard and scrolling down. To me, it needs to be emblazoned prominently on the screen and directly underneath.

Jason: And that’s bullshit, YouTube. Straight up, that’s bullshit, right?

Kim: Yeah.

Jason: I, I just-

Ron: Maybe YouTube doesn’t really know, because YouTube is also a computer, right?

So-

Kim: Yeah, that’s a fair point. Yeah.

Ron: I mean-

Jason: Come on, Ron. What are you talking about?

Jason: Uh,

Ron: you

Jason: know what I’m saying? So- The company bears, bears the responsibility ... ain’t no people who work there and shit?

Ron: I, the, I don’t think it’s like that. I, I- Well, what do you

Jason: mean?

Ron: D- because I build software for a living. I- you put up these mechanisms and people feed stuff in.

You don’t have any idea what’s-

Jason: So then,

Ron: like, if, if- And you can only react. You can only react. Right. [00:18:00] So if YouTube was made aware that there is this AI-generated music that’s masquerading as person-generated-

Kim: Right ...

Ron: they should put something up like Kim says.

Kim: Right.

Ron: They should.

Kim: But who’s

Ron: responsible- Right?

And, and-

Jason: But after the fact ...

Kim: responsibility, or is it the person generating it responsibility? That’s what I’m wondering. And this is why I’m trying to-

Ron: I, yeah, I think

Jason: like- That’s somewhere lost in

Ron: Congress ... I’m guessing that I’m... Yeah. I’m, that there is no policy against this.

Carlos: Right.

Ron: And, and so to that extent, maybe what you’re saying is true, like, yeah, this is YouTube’s fault, because they should have a policy against it I would imagine, because- I too look at all of the comments on this cat’s pa- on this AI’s page Yeah I said this cat’s page.

You mean this cat’s page.

NPC: No cat.

Ron: And it’s clear, unless these [00:19:00] comments are AI generated, which is possible. Oh, shit. But it’s clear that these people are listening to this music and they do not know that it is AI.

Kim: I know.

Ron: I think that that’s the crux of this whole conversation is this is going to happen more and more W- A- and one, is it wrong?

I think the three of us agree that it’s wrong

Kim: Hell yeah

Ron: But two, what should we do about it?

Kim: Right

Ron: What can we do about it? Um-

Kim: And who’s accountable for it? I mean, it’s kind of like so many things with tech and with internet and all that, that it got so far ahead of us that it-

Spy: Yeah ...

Kim: it feels like so far.

Even just, like, all the stuff about social media and teens and kids, like, we have lost that. And there should’ve been, like, regulations and rules and da da da for, like, age limits, all this stuff, but we’ve lost that. [00:20:00] And now we haven’t even caught up with that, and here comes AI, like, a whole nother level.

It’s kinda terrifying to me.

Jason: It should be such a cool- So, so- ... awesome tech, like, for the future. Instead, it’s like it’s coined under sucks for people, great for capitalism and a few people. You know, otherwise- Yeah ... they’re just... And the politicians haven’t caught up, caught up to the internet, or, you know, the internets, so why would they figure out...

I mean, you’re saying almost like going back to YouTube, like, what, you know, we could only react. It- that’s kind of like an LLM in a sense. It’s a black box. We don’t... Nobody knows what’s actually- Yeah ... going on in it. So we’re in that phase of Earth time where we don’t know what the fuck- Yeah ... is gonna come out on the output.

Yeah. But guess what? You gotta just deal with it. It might be real, might be fake. Probably fake, right? I mean, [00:21:00] AI is- Yeah ... seeping into everything kinda like plastics do, which is backed by the oil companies- ... because plastic- Yeah ... is made from oil.

Ron: From petroleum, yeah.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. So we’re kinda getting screwed going in and coming out.

Yeah. If that’s possible.

Kim: Well, you know-

Ron: Yeah,

Kim: yeah ... th- there’s a another example that recently happened to me too. Mm. We all know, like, there’s been a ton of deep fake videos and people’s- Mm, mm-hmm ... voice and images, and that’s been talked about for a while. But, like, this particular part where, like, they’re going into your heart and your m- your soul uninvited is really killing me.

That’s what really kills me. And here, another example is, like, on Instagram. I love my curated Instagram, and it’s lift up. It’s a lot of Black and brown people, like, with positive messages or, like, just preaching the truth or talking about politics or lifting [00:22:00] up and various things. And so I get this message, and it’s from this elder Black woman, and this is just one of those Instagram boop-boop, you’re scrolling, boop-boop-boop.

She pops up. Her name is Yo Mama Graves, and she talks specifically to mothers about giving themselves a break or, like, she’s passing down generational information to mothers who are younger about from her knowledge, and make inter- It’s kind of a lift up thing. I- I’ve heard several of them and... Or just like, “Here’s the truth.

Don’t feel bad because this. Here’s the truth about motherhood, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.” And I, I kinda, I knew there was something up with her. This was after Benny Rivers. And kinda like that- Oh, no ... too perfect image, too polished, da-da-da-da-da. And so I looked her up, and she is [00:23:00] AI. And I- Oh. You look at those comments, a lot of those, a lot of the women, those moms who are, like, validated by her c- what she says are like, “Thank you, you’re preaching truth, da-da-da,” and, “Thank you, blah-blah-blah.”

And so she’s not real and a c- like a, I think, am- amalgamation of, like, various other people who aren’t receiving credit are... This- Right ... company created her, turning into this voice and this image of m- of, like, an elder, elder matriarch. But even worse than... N- maybe not even worse, I don’t know what’s worse, but as a part of that, you go to her comment section and you comment.

She replies back to you, “Did you get your No More Survival Guide yet? Because self-care and other talks,” da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I don’t know if I’m supposed to read it anyway. But it’s a message selling you something.

Jason: It’s a product. Yeah. It sucks for people, but it’s great for capitalism- Yeah, man ... for a few. [00:24:00]

Kim: I think that is so shitty.

Jason: What if some people don’t care? Because obviously we shut shit down, right? But do people even care? I mean, m- my kids are like, “I can tell if that’s real or not.” My daughter says, “I can tell by the lines.” The what? Any line. Any line. She’s, she can tell by the lines, the perfection of the lines shouldn’t be so perfect.

Things are more, there’s more entropy.

Yeah. But i- i- it feels to me, without some legislation, without countries controlling it, there’s gonna be parts of the world that are unfettered internet, you know, where the borders... How, I mean, and people are gonna end up buying products based off of this because they don’t know?

Kim: Yeah. [00:25:00]

Jason: Uh-

Kim: And also who’s making them?

Yeah, that’s exactly it. Who’s making them? Like, these are both elder Black people that were created. Do we know who’s creating them?

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Kim: Of, like, white- ... male millennials who create, you know, who leech off- Oh, yeah ... you know? And they create- Absolutely ... these images, and then they’re profiting off of

Jason: it? Any, any fool who, regardless of- It’s true

color, creed, or what have you, it’s a problem. And what I’m trying to say is it’s a real problem for me, but I’ve got old school ways to a degree. I have expectations of my own autonomy, and the autonomy of my feelings and, and expression and what I expect from other people, and this is definitely a breach on that.

But you’re gonna have a whole bunch of people, I think, that also don’t care. And is this e- without legislation, is this just an unfettered runaway train? I mean, it’s not like [00:26:00] AI models are getting weaker, uh, or less pervasive.

Ron: Yeah. Yeah. I, I don’t see how it stops.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: Uh, because we don’t even have people who are supposed to be in the roles of protecting the citizenship from unbridled capitalism.

That is one of the roles of the government.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: And we don’t have people in government who, at this time, who are concerned with these things. And it, and it’s just unfortunate that it’s happening at this particular time, because we are definitely at an inflection point with respect to the technology’s capabilities and their effects on society.

So what we saw happen to our society- Through s- through just the technology of social media, which was something that got away-

Jason: Mm-hmm ...

Ron: from [00:27:00] the people who created it.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: We’re seeing it exponentially more so with AI. So I don’t think there’s going to be any solution to this particular issue and the issues...

I mean, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Let’s... Right? We, we can, we can- Yeah ... acknowledge that.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: So the only thing that’s going to beat this particular technology is another set of technology, or people using technology to protect us from bad actors using this technology. The bad actors are the people who are standing up to Benny Rivers and saying, “Hey, this is an old Black man singing the blues,” and, and it’s not.

The bad actors are the people who are standing up this Yo Mama lady, uh, on Instagram. Those are bad [00:28:00] actors. But I think that there are a lot of well-intentioned people who hopefully, if they can be made aware of the potential impact to our society, we could convince people to combat this with-

Kim: Oh

Ron: technology, ‘cause it’s not gonna be through regulation. It’s not gonna be- Um ... through policy.

Kim: The government. Yeah, you’re absolutely

Ron: right. It’s not. I think that the o- only thing that can counter this to our benefit is more technology.

Kim: Well, that’s really-

Ron: I’m a bi- I’m biased ‘cause I’m a technologist. You know, that’s what I do.

No, but- But yeah ...

Kim: I, I’m so glad you said that, ‘cause I hadn’t thought of that, and you are both in the tech industry, so I’m gonna ask you both a question. Like, so what you mean is that can someone invent like an app or like some sort of th- something you can install in your, in your YouTube or in your compu- or in your phone that will automatically scan for AI?

And then f- if [00:29:00] you’re listening to YouTube, for example, and it’s AI, because you added that to your situation, it’ll, it’ll- Yes ... pop up and flag it. That can happen.

Ron: I, I think so. I think that as this becomes more of a problem, I believe if you believe in any benefits of capitalism, the forces of self-interest and greed will cause somebody to invent and market- Yeah

this solution And the weird and funny, ironic part about this is it w- is we’ll probably use AI To implement this feature.

That’s so true. So so, yeah.

Jason: I don’t know. I, I mean, there was, there was more millionaires made selling products to people searching for gold in California around- Yeah ... 1849 and after- Mm-hmm ... than millionaires that were made finding [00:30:00] gold, right? Right. So- Right ... there’s a whole other, other industries that bubble out of nothing, the, for an invention that was created to solve nothing.

This just happened. The internet, AI. As you guys were saying, we do have, as humans, we have a choice, right? We can pick something, we can click something, or we don’t have to. Pick it

Kim: or click it

Jason: Yeah You know?

Kim: Well, or until that, uh, like you said, Ron, until that exists where, like, I don’t know what you call it, like, an AI, uh, I don’t know what you call it, but some-

Ron: Detector

Kim: AI detector. Until that-

Ron: Yeah ...

Kim: exists, that is me. So from now on- ... every shit that I, uh, that I am leaving a little moved by, I am going to check like hell for sure. I

Ron: think so.

Kim: And that’s-

Jason: I think

Ron: so.

Jason: That’s so annoying. I think, but- That’s so annoying ... no, but it’s going to be- Why do I [00:31:00] have to do that?

Kim: I hate it, but- You do.

You do. Why do

Jason: I have to do it? We do. But I don’t w- it’s like I don’t have to... Then I’m like, is this honey real? You know, I mean, is shit real? Then it’s like, yeah, when I find out, like, oh, that’s a beautiful diamond, it’s not a real diamond, you know? Uh, i- is that fake sunshine? Is it... I mean- ... fuck, man. What the fuck?

You know, that’s fake sex. It’s like, God damn it. It was a- I thought this shit was real. I mean, it just seems like a real fucking- But, I mean, would you care? Sure. Just kidding. I would care. I would. I think. I mean, listen, like I was saying, we all have a choice, and I think there might also be a time when certain companies will tout that they are organic, they’re humanly organic.

Yes. Nothing in their product- Yes ... has been- Yeah ... touched by AI. Not their marketing, right? Not their financials. [00:32:00] Fucking get somebody to do the math, right? And I think- Yeah ... people will actually pay for that as a reward for, hey, this movie was made with real actors, with real sets, and real costumes, and real people who do hair and shit, you know?

I think that it’ll... In a capitalistic society, well, then that becomes a highlighted commodity. I want- Authenticity. I want soul. I want heartbreak, man. And, and the way that, how do you get up in the morning the next day? That’s human. AI could tell me about it. They could tell me how it feels to have sunshine on my face early in the morning, right?

But it doesn’t know how it feels, and it can’t talk to me about it in that way. And that’s for shit. Yeah. You know? I need a human. I need a human even at CVS and Walgreens, at the [00:33:00] checkout, goddammit. I hate that self-checkout shit. If I got a bottle of bourbon, you can’t even go there. You still need a human.

Come on.

Ron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jason: Last, Ron, I was saying picks the click. I was saying you got- Oh ... people have a chance to click and to pick what they want, and that’s really important- Okay ... because the obsidian pays attention to that shit.

Ron: Well, well, I, yeah, that’s perfect. That’s perfect. Yeah, let’s go right into that picks the click.

That is 100% organic as we were saying earlier. This is, uh- It is 100.

Kim: Yeah ...

Ron: 100%. 100%. But yeah, picks the click is, you know, we’re gonna kinda highlight a few titles in, in media that you should be up on. The first title that we’re gonna talk about today is, is, is a book that we think that you should be getting into.

It kinda has a relation to what we were just talking about. This book is called The Constitution. Have you ever heard of the Constitution? [00:34:00] Any of

Jason: you

Ron: guys? Yeah. Yeah.

Jason: Piece of paper, right? Yeah,

Ron: so it’s a piece of paper. It’s the foundation of our government. I’m not saying to go out and get the actual Constitution, but go get the book called The Constitution by an author named Melissa Murray.

Melissa: The reason I decided to write this book was, um, about three years ago I was in the Twitter streets. Do you remember when Twitter was great? One day I was on Twitter, and someone that I knew from my childhood, um, he was a public figure. His name is Luther Campbell. Does anyone know who Luther Campbell is?

Uncle Luke from 2 Live Crew. If you’re from the South, he, yeah, a rapper, um, Uncle Luke from 2 Live Crew. He was on Twitter, and he’s really going in on Joe Biden, who was the President of the United States. And, you know, he had a litany of things that Joe Biden needed to do, things Joe Biden should do. Joe Biden should bring down the price of gas.

Joe Biden should deal with healthcare. Joe Biden should do this. Joe Biden should [00:35:00] deal with police brutality. I mean, it was a really long list. It was like a thread almost on Twitter. And as I was reading it, I realized about half of the things that Luke was talking about Joe Biden couldn’t do because the president isn’t authorized to do that.

Um, other people may be able to do that. Congress could do it. Um, a mayor might be able to do it of a local, a locality. And it occurred to me that Uncle Luke probably had not read the Constitution. And then I began thinking, I wonder if anyone has read the Constitution.

Ron: This sister is on MS Now a lot.

She’s on podcasts. She is a law professor. She breaks it down. She, she lists each passage, and she gives you a history of how the writing of that particular article and clause came to be. She does a breakdown of each of the Bill of Rights. It’s fascinating, the backstory behind every sentence that’s in the [00:36:00] Constitution.

So it’s a really great book, actually. Uh, so that’s the book we recommend. TV show. So there’s a couple good TV shows out there that we think you should watch. If any of you out there are fans of Denzel Washington- ... he had a movie out, I don’t know, about 15 years ago called Man on Fire.

Jason: Yep.

Ron: And, um, really, really cool movie.

There is a kind of a reboot of that. It’s a TV series on Netflix starring Yahya Abdul-Mateen, so we recommend you check that out. Moving on to movies. Yeah, so w- we would be remiss if we didn’t mention that there is a movie out about the gloved one, the King of Pop. The King of Pop. The, the controversial Michael Jackson starring his nephew, Jaafar.

[Michael Trailer plays]

Ron: I, I wanna do a whole pod on this one. Let’s do that. Um, but, uh- Yeah, I w- I

Jason: do want to.

Ron: It’s, it’s worth

Jason: it.

Ron: I, I r- I think one of our, the best pods that we had was the one where we did the dive into Michael Jackson and Bill Cosby.

Do you guys remember that

Jason: one? The Black All Stars.

Ron: Oh my gosh, yeah. So this movie does not cover much of the more controversial aspects of Michael Jackson, and there’s a Netflix documentary that attempts to tell the rest of the story, so maybe watch both. Okay. In terms of music, in Picks to Click for this episode, we wanna recommend [00:38:00] an album by somebody who just passed.

His name is Sonny Rollins.

Jason: Amen.

Ron: And he is a legend, a saxophonist, saxophone colossus, yeah, his peers called him. I call my man Jason “Young Sonny Rollins.”

Jason: Hey, a- anything, anything with that man, that’s a compliment.

Ron: Oh, my, my, my. So we recommend you listen to an album called The Bridge.

That’s your picks to click in terms of music. And to bring it to a close, we have a podcast that we recommend. It’s by a brother who’s out there, he’s got a very unique story. We’re going to give him support. His name is Carlos Watson, close to some of us here from the Bay Area. He has released a series of podcasts, one of which is called [00:39:00] Carlos, and it’s really, really good.

Carlos: Both as a technologist and as a former spy, how do you think current spies are using AI, or how do you think they will use AI?

Spy: Well, like everybody else, okay? But AI doesn’t know, doesn’t know yet what is in decision-makers’ minds. So we don’t know what, we can’t hack Vladimir Putin’s brain yet.

Carlos: You’re saying that you could really, if you were the government, you probably would train one of these models to think like Putin, to think like Xi Jinping.

Ron: The podcast interviews are really on point, and we, we think you should give the brother a listen. I think, uh, in terms of our first picks to click, that’s going to do it. We’ll say the Constitution, Man on Fire, Michael, The Bridge, and Carlos.

Jason: Fantastic.

Ron: Nice.

Jason: I like that. Yes, sir. So, and two, Melissa Murray, she’s fantastic.

Yeah. And I need to check that out for sure. And, you know-

Ron: Yes ...

Jason: how can you not [00:40:00] see, you know, Michael? Yeah. Just, it’s, it, it’s gotta happen. That, that’s gotta happen. What was so cool as I hear this music coming on was chopping it up with y’all again, uh, on this, our season five premiere of the Rhythmic Lens.

Uh, and just to let you know, we’ll be back at you with more episodes, y’all, this year. So- Yay ... get ready. Check us out at thenewobsidian.com. A curation born of multiple colors and patterns, a field of flowers, a translucent random act of atoms, bearing weaponry to beautify gemstones. We invite you upon this journey.

The price of the ticket measured by the distance traveled between destinations sought. Definitely check for the next episode of the [00:41:00] Rhythmic Lens. Peace. Come on!

In this episode of The Rhythmic Lens, we dive deep into Sinners: The Movie—Ryan Coogler and Michael B. Jordan’s genre-bending, time-traveling, blood-soaked allegory for Black life, love, resistance, and cultural resiliency. It’s part vampire flick, part spiritual reckoning, and all fire.

In this episode, Jason challenges us to wrestle with the film’s central provocation: Why is it called Sinners—and not Evil? Ron walks us through his unexpected journey from skepticism to awe, naming the film’s vampire metaphor as a gateway to understanding the violent but empty seductions of white supremacy. And Kim brings it all home, naming music not just as soundtrack but as salvation—our cultural archive, our time machine, our spiritual balm. Together, we explore how Sinners reclaims horror to tell a deeply human story about power, temptation, and the cost of freedom.

Join us as we unpack the symbolism, the controversy behind its title, and the way music—like the people it springs from—refuses to die. If you’ve seen the film, you’ll want to revisit it with us. If you haven’t, consider this your spoiler-laced invitation to feel something profound.

Transcript

Jason: [00:00:00] Yo. This is the Rhythmic Lens, a podcast that explores arts and life by siping on the events, new releases and issues of the day by the editors of the Obsidian. I'm Jason.

Kim: I'm Kim.

Ron: And I'm Ron.

Jason: That's right now. Okay. How you guys doing? It is, it is. It is great. To see you, to hear your voices. The Rhythmic Lens 2025.

And you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna play with the Lens a little bit, but first I gotta ask Kim, what's in your glass?

Kim: Well, oh, sorry. That was my coaster falling. Oh. In a regular old water glass. 'cause I don't have any wine glasses. I am sipping some rose today.

Jason: Ooh, very nice. Yeah, [00:01:00] actually that looks like a old jar.

Kim: It is actually. An old jar of raspberry jam.

Ron: I was definitely gonna call that out. All that was, that is clearly a jar. That is not a, that's not even a, that is a jar. That's not even a water glass. But you got a coaster, right?

Kim: I got a coaster.

Ron: Classy. You got a coaster for your jar.

Kim: I'm classy. Yeah.

Ron: What kind of wine was that?

Kim: I don't know the name, it's just Rose and I don't even really like wine that much, but it was a gift

Ron: Uhhuh,

Kim: and I'm trying to be a little more, uh, you know, classy, refined.

Ron: Okay. Okay. Yes. That looked like you was drinking some "Beaujolais" or sumthin,

Kim: I don't even know what that is. No clue.

Jason: All right. What kind of refined beverage do you have?

Ron: Tonight I am rocking some Gentleman's Cut, which is the Steph Curry Bourbon. Alright, figure. You know, we're talking [00:02:00] about, progressions and all that. So, support Steph.

Jason: Fantastic.

You're gonna have three of those. Okay. Three point.

Ron: What do you, what makes you think I haven't?

Jason: My bad. Alright.

Kim: By the way, Jason was slurring. What do you have?

Jason: Yeah, Jay. Hey. And so I got a mug and this is my, this is my Charles Lloyd bug by the way. This is, you know, the greatest living jazz saxophones around and inside I actually have some Colombian brew coffee. I'm just, just going for it like that. All right.

So it's not early, so I'm a bit daring in that. Are I bringing, are you you feeling ill or

Ron: something, or? No, not at all. Felt like tee totaling. Okay. It's all good. I just, just the mood,

Jason: uh, it is just the mood. I I'm not trying to put any pressure on you or anything. No, [00:03:00] no, no, no. I'm awake. Which some people would say you've, you know, earlier you are.

You are. Aw. Woke. Or whoa, right? It means my eyes are open and yes, I can see the cultural moment. I don't know. And I think you guys can too.

Kim: Wow. You got all that from the coffee?

Jason: Told you Charles Lloyd, man, if you haven't heard, you know, forest flower, go, go listen, but okay. You know, and it, this moment is isn't just about politics, but the future is now.

Right. And things are shifting and in a way that we don't know where it's gonna end up. And I'm being very general here at this moment, but there are people who have a strategy. On how to move through the moment [00:04:00] and they're already doing it. And sometimes we just have to open our eyes or shift the perspective of the lens and point it in a direction that gives you vision, that tells the story that you know the path that you've tread and The Rhythmic Lens is gonna focus on that.

Ron, what do you say?

Ron: Yeah, definitely, man. I think we're definitely in a moment here. With the folks that give themselves these four letter acronyms the MAGA and the Doge, they're definitely feeling it right now, right? They just going with reckless abandon and they're doing their thing.

And basically what they're trying to do is crush DEI wherever they can, and that like, [00:05:00] that's become a demonic word. They're trying to root it out everywhere. But you think about what is DEI? It's diversity, equity, and inclusion, which are virtues, which are words that shouldn't be controversial at all. If you are against diversity, equity, and inclusion, I guess you're for homogeneity, which means everything is the same and you're for privilege. 'cause that's the opposite of equity and you're for exclusion and let's exclude people.

And you know, by the people that are doing it, you know, who they're trying to exclude. So that's our environment. But what we've always known here at the Lens, we've always said that the arts and life are one. And we know that the culture is gonna point the way in a lot of ways, and that's where we're gonna keep the Lens focused.

We believe that culture is going to point, the way forward is the culture in our [00:06:00] music and in our art and in our literature is going to inspire new leadership because we need some new leadership. Y'all, I don't care what side of the spectrum you are on, this can't be it. And so, we are definitely looking forward to pointing out how the art is going to lead us.

And, Kim can tell best. About the artist that we're going to start out with on in this episode. But that's what we're gonna be doing with the Lens. We're just gonna keep looking at the artists and the musicians and the writers and all that that is leading the way for us.

What do you think, Kim?

Kim: I think it sounds amazing, and we decided to kick this off with an artist by the name of Amy. Sherrold, and why we're starting with Amy. One of the reasons [00:07:00] is that she recently had a exhibit at the SF, MOMA which we'll get to more on that later. And I went to see the exhibit.

And was absolutely blown away. And then I said to Jason, Ron, we should go check this out. And so we did. So a little bit about Amy. Her work embodies exactly what we were talking about. She takes the everyday black experience. She kind of strips away the distortion of the white gaze.

It's just intermingled forcibly into the fabric of our lives, unfortunately. So she strips that away and presents us. Black people in a way that is dignified, that is visually stunning. I consider it to be of genius level skillset, yet it's also somehow uncomplicated and is quietly incredibly powerful.

The name of her current tour, that recently just [00:08:00] left the SF MOMA is American Sublime, and I feel like it couldn't be more perfect because her portraits are absolutely the embodiment of both of those words, and she's been doing it a long time, long before she gained recognition as Michelle Obama's official portrait artist in 2018.

So she was born in Columbus, Georgia in 1973, and she, if you don't know her work, she works mostly as a portraitist. Depicting African Americans in everyday settings, but very intimately. And she challenges the traditional representation of black identity. Her style is simplified realism. It involves stage photographs of her subject, but she actually calls, she'll stop people on the street and say, Hey, will you model for me?

And she said that actually only one person has ever said no. So here I am, like I wanna go. I wanna go to, I think she's in Atlanta now, and just walk around where she. Works and hope. She'll be like, Hey, would you be, I would love to be, I wanna a model for her. That'd be amazing. Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] But she just picks people off the street and brings them in, dresses them up in whatever she has in envisioned in her mind, and takes a bunch of photos of them.

And then she'll use those photos side by side on her canvases to, um, create her beautiful portraits using everyday people, literally everyday people. And she uses a signature gray scale technique. It's called "Grisaille", which is a French, it's a, it's for her subject skin tones and just for the skin tone. So the skin tones and hair are in this Grisaille technique, and her aim in that is to focus the attention on their interior lives rather than their outwards identities or race. By the way, Grisaille is a 16th century technique that was actually used for underpainting and now she's taken it and made it like the feature of her pieces.

Ron: So when you say underpainting, you mean like they would start how By painting it Grisaille and they would color it after.

Kim: Yes. So a lot of 16th century artists, they would put the  [00:10:00] Grisaille underneath and then they would add layers of color on top of it. And that allowed them to have like more translucent layers to build and it made it more of a three-dimensional effect. But it wasn't underpainting, it wasn't like the focus.

And she's taken that technique and made it like the focus. And that's kind of what she's known for now. So since 2012, she's used shades of gray her choice to portray skin tones, and she describes it as a choice that is intended to challenge conventions about skin color and race. And her portraits are absolutely stunning.

Ron: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, I don't want to jump ahead, but I would just say that technique, it really grabs you, really grabs you.

Kim: For sure.

Jason: Mm. No. And that is in a lot of ways the experience that we had. 'cause Kim said, look y'all, we gotta go and mm-hmm. So we did a field trip and the SF MOMA is a special [00:11:00] place.

It's a beautiful museum. It's south of Market Street in San Francisco.

Mm-hmm.

Jason: On third. Between Howard and Mission and it was a beautiful day. The sky was crisp blue, and San Francisco promises a sight wherever you go from people to the city itself by the bay. And it was just a gorgeous day and it didn't disappoint.

Kim: I just have to jump in and say that I was very honored that I had this interesting experience and it happened right before we went in the exhibit. I went to the cafe and there was. The cashier behind the counter when I, mm-hmm. When I stepped up, I had this little kind of aside with like his friend, a coworker.

He's like, and I was like, what's happening here? I'm trying to order. Okay. And then he said, he looked at me, he said, are you the artist? And I was like, what?

Uh

Kim: huh. I had no idea what he was talking about. [00:12:00] And they said. You're the artist, right? And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. Oh my gosh, gosh. As I realized at the moment, he thought that I, I think he thought that I was Amy.

She and I was like, oh, I'm honored, but no, I'm not her. I was like, but I'm an art teacher and I work. And he's like, I'll give you, I'll give you the, the member's discount. So I got a little discount. 'cause he thought it was her.

Jason: You were getting ready to get sent home with your own paintings.

I be like, I need this one. I was so honored.

Ron: Well, we just call you Amy from now on.

Kim: I wish call. Wow. I know. Call you

Ron: Amy. I guess that's what I told him. I was

Kim: like, I wish. Anyway.

Ron: Basically a light skinned, good looking woman. You must be a artist.

Kim: That was pretty funny. Pretty funny.

Ron: Yeah it's a compliment. It's a compliment.

Kim: Yeah. Oh, I was honored for sure.

Ron: But, it's also in a weird way, it just kind of [00:13:00] illustrates what Amy is trying to communicate in her art, right? About us, right? Because we're what's the word I'm looking for, right?

It's, um. It's a word that, uh, oh my, I can't, I wanted to say, trying

to say like, people don't necessarily differentiate us so much. Correct. They kind of see like, like you said, a light-skinned black woman and Yes, I could be me, I could be Amy. Sherald.

Exactly, yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Thank you.

Kim: I felt that too, like I was honored 'cause it's Amy Sherald, but I was also like

Ron: mm-hmm.

Kim: What? You're not really seeing me really, because if you look a little closer,

Ron: but maybe if you were walking around in gray scale. Right.

But I have to tell you, when you looked at her portraits, like you said, they were. Ordinary people.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: I [00:14:00] think that was one of the first things I said when I, I think I said it to Jason, I said, these people look like people I know.

Yes, yes.

Ron: That's when I was, it was like, I'm, at a, like a family like reunion or something here.

It was like, I know that person. Her depiction of the person in that particular portrait, I think by the technique that she uses, it lets you really see the person.

Yeah. They,

Ron: they become really, really real. Yeah. And it's like, and every one of the portraits, there's like a very like obvious dignity. Yes. But it's like a dignity without saying, Hey, look at me, I'm dignified. Right. It's just I'm me and it's like it's me and I am enough. You know? Right. And, and the people that [00:15:00] that are in there, we always have been. Exactly. Um, yeah. So that was like thank you for sharing that with us.

Kim: Yeah, thank you. And that's kind of like what I meant when I said uncomplicated because

Ron: mm-hmm.

Kim: Um, we so often are not allowed to just be, it's, you know, there's always something else ascribed to it. And I think that's one, one of the, something that's added on. I think that's one of the things that where the gray scale came from and her meaning behind it too is that, it's just people doing things that they do every day and being just beautiful and stunning because that's who we are. Right. And seeing ourselves and seeing, like I saw a, I was like that, that, that looks like my student that I'm thinking of in like, you know, five years from now he's, he looks like that kid right there in this in the beach scene.

Right. And

Kim: I also think it's, I just had a weird connection from what you said to the idea, that I think a lot of people, a lot of white or non-black Americans miss out on, is that, I think [00:16:00] maybe is part of the many facets of the problem is that when you see someone, on the street who's black, you, you identify often can identify and say, oh, they, you, you have a reference.

For that. A lot of people don't have, like mm-hmm. I might see, um, a man crossing the street who's older and maybe, his clothes are not like super sharp or maybe even not even clean. And maybe he is unhoused, but I see my dad and I'm like, ah, that guy with my dad.

So that's a connection that you can make that allows you to see them differently. That a lot of people don't have a reference for.

Ron: What was your favorite piece? Both of you guys?

Kim: You wanna, I know

Ron: mine. I know mine. Should I share mine first?

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: So there was a piece where it was two young men and they had two young ladies.

They were at the beach and they were carrying the ladies [00:17:00] on their shoulders. And it was like took you back to like high school and just that time of innocence and just fun. But also, again, just to kind of point back to, without even saying it, just that that quiet dignity, like, you know, we're here, we're of the world and we're beautiful and I don't know. For some reason piece really spoke to me. What about you, Jason?

Jason: Yeah I think it's really difficult for me to pick a single piece. There's something that Amy is presenting that's larger than the single piece. They I get that.

Yeah. Right. They together, tell a story the way she presents it, and they're gaze back at you at the viewer. You know, you skip from one to one and you're like, that's my favorite. That's my favorite. That's my favorite. I had the same experience too. Yeah. [00:18:00] And, so when you say pick your favorite one. It's exceptionally difficult. I think the one that emotionally touched me was Brianna Taylor. Oh yeah. Yeah. And again, as Amy has said, these aren't portraits, right? They're archetypes. She's painting a story she has in mind and she is found in these people and in this clothing that she puts them in when she takes their photograph is a representation of her imagination of an archetype. And she finds someone who represents that so they don't find her right. I she finds them.

Ron: Right.

Jason: And that familiarity, that's why at times I think in those pictures we see ourselves and we see people we know is because they're not portraits they're archetypes of American blackness, of [00:19:00] Americanness. Right. And, it very much so is the blues aesthetic, right? It's through the harsh reality of who we are, of our gray scale with a tense of sunshine, right? Skin that we celebrate the everyday life, and that, as she calls it, is the American sublime, and it just absolutely resonates, is absolutely mind blowing.

It seems so simple. What she's doing seems so straightforward and uncomplicated, but it's hard and my thoughts around it and my emotions around it are absolutely complicated. So I don't think I can.

Kim: Mm-hmm. Okay, well first of all, the first time I went, I stayed for three hours. I went with a friend and I stayed for three hours and I was like, oh, it's already been three hours.

I just, the time was something [00:20:00] that's great. I was blown away and it really touched me and I, I remember thinking one of the thoughts was that I wish all of my black students could, could come because you couldn't help but feel the absolutely stunning, just glorious, profound beauty of blackness walking in the room.

And I remember thinking that other folks would be jealous, that they're not black, walking through that exhibit. how could you not be even if you'd never felt that before. So as far as , picking a painting, it's really hard. My pick. It is very cliche, but I'm gonna go with the Michelle Obama portrait because I did, I did something.

I decorated my door my classroom. I had some students help me make a representation of that portrait

mm-hmm. On

Kim: the door. Mm-hmm. And I really like, it was a three dimensional thing and I really liked the way that it turned [00:21:00] out. And just also the mood I'm in right now. I just feel like Michelle Obama is just, I mean, they need to invent a new word for her.

She's everything and also everything we need right now. And, she's, just represents in my mind too how women need to be in charge right now. And part of the reason is because she doesn't wanna, she doesn't wanna, you know, people, oh, you wanna be present.

She doesn't want that. And that's part of, that's exactly why she should be it. 'cause all the people who are doing that want it so desperately bad and are doing all the wrong things. And we really need women right now and. It's this grand portrait that has its own space in the exhibit. And, I love all of her portraits, but that's what I'm feeling right now.

Ron: I don't think that's a cliche at all. I think it's like I, Amy, [00:22:00] she's, genius multiplied by Michelle's greatness. And so you put those two together, it's a real force. Not that the other portraits weren't a force but yeah, I think you're acknowledging something that is true.

I like what you said about Michelle. I wish that she would sacrifice herself to save us, but she's not gonna do that.

Jason: Well the portraits do hold that essence, right? Of sacrifice. Mm-hmm. Right. Again of the blues aesthetic. And these are particular lessons.

Again, we've talked about how they tell stories and there's a story here that is attached to Kim's classroom that I hope she can share with us.

Kim: Yeah. So I'm gonna be careful in sharing it and try to leave some specifics out. But so I'm an art teacher and related to my visiting of the exhibit the first time I was so excited, so [00:23:00] jazz, and I was like, I need to bring this to my students.

And so I did and I put together a lesson, that was, based upon and featured Amy. She's work. And then something happened that really stopped me in my tracks and I wasn't expecting. And, basically the very short synopsis is that there was some boys in some of the upper grades and they, part of the process was involving black and white photos of black women like Kamala Harris, Maya Angelou, and various other people.

Nina Simone. and these boys drew devil horns on a picture of Kamala and scratched out her face and they scratched the other face of Maya Angelou. Um, wow. Just really disrespectful kind of things to do to somebody's face. And in addition, one of them picked up a picture of Nina Simone, and just started punching her in the face five, six [00:24:00] times, which was very shock.

I was like, what? Wait, what? Like I don't think they knew who she was specifically. I don't think there was no connection whatsoever for them to do something like that. other than just in my opinion, other than just seeing a black woman's face.

Ron: Right.

Kim: And by the way there was a variety of, probably seven or eight different choices of women that they could choose for this part of the project. So like they didn't have to choose Kamala Harris if they disagreed with her politics or for whatever reason, or if their family did.

And then also, there were things that had been going on over the weeks. Prior and during that kind of had my little spidey senses tingling. You know, you get that feeling. There's some vibes when you feel like some prejudice and, it's in their attitude, their affect, possibly some of the words too.

And also these boys had a history in the school, of mistreating a black classmate. That was another part of it that was just fully a reality.

Ron: And this is [00:25:00] elementary school.

Kim: Yeah. Yeah. and I had noticed little things that made my sp sense tingle related in relation to that issue too.

So I did some due diligence and research and such to confirm that. I really do think that there were prejudice behaviors against blackness. So I really had to let that sink in. And, think a lot of things, like where does this come from? And I didn't say this, but obviously these kids are not black.

Mm-hmm. I'm not gonna say the specific race that they, that they are, but obviously they're not black. so I kind of hedge, when I talk to people about saying that it's racism. I wanna give them, they're young. Definitely, definitely. I felt like it was prejudiced behavior that could easily turn into a full blown capital R racism.

But for that not to happen, obviously we need this is, we can get in there right now. This is when we can get in. There we're educators and fix it, [00:26:00] you know? Right. And get challenge that. Um, so then I kind of began to think about that.

Ron: So are you thinking about ways that you can reach these? You said it was two boys.

Kim: Well, it's around two to four in a couple different classrooms. Yeah.

Ron: Okay.

Kim: Yeah.

Ron: Yeah. And so you're thinking of what about ways to reach them?

Kim: Yeah, I am, and I actually first of all, it made me think like how many kids have, similar to these kiddos, have that in their heads that is not coming out.

We don't know about, but it's there. And where, and of course you go through the process of thinking about like exactly where does it come from? Who's giving them the messages?

You know, like whose fault.

Ron: But you know, the thing that strikes me is that okay, you know, it's not like, okay, these are is are kids.

Yeah. And each of those actions, right. Drawing horns on Kamala Harris. So that's basically reflecting whatever [00:27:00] lessons they're getting or whatever messages they're getting, that black people are bad, right? Mm-hmm. Like, there's nobody that's more bad than the devil, right? Yeah. And then the other one, Maya Angelou, they're scratching out her face, so they're trying to erase her.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And, in the other one, they just straight out punched her. Yeah, Nina Simone. And it is not like, I probably am guessing they probably knew who Kamala Harris was, but you know, these young kids coming up right now, they probably didn't know Maya Angelou. They didn't know Nina Simone.

Kim: Um, yeah, I mean, part of the reason I chose those women was because their teacher had said that they were going to be learning about them. So at this point, I don't think that she had started teaching them about them.

Ron: Yeah. It's not like you can say, I don't like the way Nina Simone sing, so bam, bam, bam.

Yeah. There's no right or you not saying, I don't like Maya Angelou's poetry. You know? Right. She's [00:28:00] reminiscent of the, like, the, uh, eclectic style, you know? I mean, you can't say that it's based on the fact that they were black women. It's awful. It is awful. And it's, it's a microcosm of what's going on in the country now.

They're trying to erase everywhere they can. Right? Like they took, they took Jackie Robinson off of a Department of Defense website. Site, okay?

Mm-hmm.

Ron: Be they had some reference to him. He was a war hero. Okay, and what they're doing is wherever they see anything, right, that they denote as other than themselves.

In other words, trying to get that, that homogeneous, you know, they don't want diversity, so they're pulling, they're trying to erase this huge component of what is America and they're trying to [00:29:00] erase. A huge component of what makes people human? Um, yeah. And so, I mean, I hope you can reach these guys because, you know,

Kim: maybe it's so many levels that it can be coming from, but, I, and I don't know exactly where, obviously it's in the ether of American.

And it's everywhere. But also when you're kids, you get a lot of those messages from more intimate, closer places.

Oh, of course.

Kim: So without, trying to access that necessarily, I was thinking, how can I try to fight back against this? And

Jason: I was gonna ask like, where do you go with this at your school and with these kids?

Kim: Well in the context of schools right now, schools are faced with so much on their plates and now everybody's going through cutbacks. It's really awful. And who knows what's gonna happen with, you know, who in office.

Addressing these issues I think that every school should [00:30:00] be full forward, doing whatever we can to continue having the message of diversity, equity, inclusion, because those are good things and no one's gonna make me abandon that and not teach that.

Good. I started doing research of cultural interactions between, black and I'm trying to not say too much about the boys, but, really connect to the students who are learning it and make it, make them understand.

How their families and themselves have been and could potentially have been influenced, had the things that these folks had done, not happened, or because the things that these amazing black people have done, how that actually impacted their lives and their families because they absolutely did. It's easy to connect any quote unquote marginalized community that has been absolutely affected by the civil rights movement. Black people in that movement changed the [00:31:00] world, changed the country, for the better for every future person of color, L-G-B-T-Q, LGBTQIA plus people, women. Everybody benefited from that, both in the laws and the example of the impact and, you know, people like C Chavez was impacted by Martin Luther King.

And so I think helping to actually go further and trace exactly how. Things for your own family and for you were made better by black people, so maybe you should have some respect for us.

My thinking was that, that could help them see us differently.

Then I had other ideas too, of putting things in the hallway about facts about various parts of history that might impact them. But it's still a work in progress.

I think we don't go far enough with kids to, we just teach them history and say, this is important, but you know, they're kinda like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Unless you make it very real for them. [00:32:00] And I think the way to do that is how this may have been, how this affected your family and yourself.

Things would not be as good as they are now. Had black people not done A, B, C, D, B,

Ron: I wonder if there's some reading that you can have them do. Right to, so that they can connect the dots themselves.

Kim: Yeah. I mean there definitely is, since I'm an art teacher, I was thinking through Yeah. How to do that through art and I'm still like processing all of that.

Mm-hmm. Um,

Kim: but, uh, a lot of people are very busy at the school and like I just really feel like if it's gonna happen, I've gotta do it.

Ron: I totally agree. Yeah, I totally agree. I hope that you can, I hope you can reach these kids, right? Yeah. Because, yeah. because honestly, I mean, you know everything happens at the local level eventually.

So I'm sending you positive energy. Kim, thank you. And I know you're gonna figure [00:33:00] it out. And the other thing is if they, at the end of the day, they don't wanna listen. Well, you got the power of the pen. Give them an F.

Give all them cats an F. Oh my

Jason: God. Zero. Your grade is zero. Kim. Maybe you can at a later podcast you can share, maybe an update on what you do the approach you take and what that means. Because when I think of Amy's work and the American sublime. What she's presenting us in is as everyday people.

It's in the American realist style, like, painters like Edward Hopper and Andy Wyatt. And, you could see it in photography like Gordon Parks, but

it's accessible. [00:34:00] And what those kids can't see yet is that. W they should be able to see themselves in us, and that's what Amy's inviting her paintings stare directly back into your own eyes. She has put some of her smaller paintings at eye level for the viewer, so there's this intimate connection. There was people in the SF, MOMA of every possible make and model, right.

Just gazing and being gazed back at. You know, your interaction with them will end up probably being with them for the rest of their lives. Because you will say, in a way, I see you and you need to see me.

Kim: Yeah.

Jason: And I think there was a lot of that in Amy's [00:35:00] exhibit and it, it, and it shakes you, it changes you.

Ron: That's a challenge ahead of us. I think that, the fact that you're tuned in to trying to reach these particular kids that are in your domain in your field of view, I think that's great. And, I love the fact that you've opened the dialogue with them on the basis of this great art, and I know you're gonna find a way to reach them because that's what we have to do to reach our fellow Americans. Mm-hmm. Is we need to keep speaking the truth in our art, in our music, in our literature, our paintings, just like Amy is doing. Yeah, your doppelganger.

Jason: Oh, you could've gotten us in for free. I part. I, I support museums though. I [00:36:00] do support museums. Amen. Well, I, I think one thing is for sure is we all would recommend if you have an opportunity to see Amy Sherald's work, um, we, we say go for it and, um, let me say this. Um, catch us@thenewobsidian.com, the curation, born of multiple colors and patterns, a field of flowers, a translucent random act of atoms, bearing weaponry to beautifying gemstones.

We invite you upon this journey, the price of the ticket measured by the distance traveled between destination sought. Definitely check for the next episode of The Rhythmic Lens. Peace.

Once again, we face an existential moment in the nation, as we have every four years when Mr. Apprentice rode down his golden escalator 12 years ago.

Join your Rhythmic Lens hosts Jason, Kim, and Ron as we break down what we all can do, right now, in the wee hours before Election Day, to ensure that we do. not. go. back.

Which we won’t do, no matter the outcome.

But we’d much rather have Kamala Harris at the helm. Find out what you can do in this exciting episode of The Rhythmic Lens!

Part one announces the winners of the Best TV Show and Music of the Year!